During the initial detailed diagnosis of the malfunction, it appeared to be just one problem, but eventually, it was discovered that there were two additional problems with the rest of the vehicle. Purchasing a used hybrid is a very risky move, both for buyers and sellers, as sellers have been recently hanging up in tears, recording significant losses on hybrids when we tell them that there is no cheap solution. After selling the vehicle, which they import with mileage after the warranty expires, buyers-owners return to the sellers due to a malfunction, as every seller is legally required to guarantee for one year. Problems then arise because hybrid small batteries, which consume their 2000 charge cycles already at 50,000 km of electric driving, after 7-8 years of use, cannot be “refreshed”. The battery system could be repacked if the cells were standard and available; however, manufacturers use dimensions that do not exist in free sales, and besides, the cell terminals are not bolted but laser-welded and pressed into their stainless steel cages, which again need to be cut because they are welded. So, removing the cells, procuring and replacing them, opening and closing the modules becomes an impossible mission. New terminals would need to be produced; designing and manufacturing at least 100,000 pieces costs around €200,000. A CNC welding machine costs from €50,000 to €100,000. This means that for a service to professionally prepare for just this battery model, a mortgage on a hotel is needed, and then the return on such investment needs to be calculated. The second option is to buy a new battery for €17,000, but it is not available; the third option is to buy a pig in a poke on eBay for €8,000 for used ones and hope they last more than a year. This battery, which is very interestingly and compactly made, with active heating and cooling, weighs over 100 kilograms. The system seems to have been designed by BOSCH, which is evident at first glance as it is very different from most other systems. NMC Prismatic cells and BMS are identical to the Fiat 500e USA California model, which we have already worked on. While the CSE controllers (slave BMS) are very similar to those of the Smart 451. It has also been reported that these batteries were either assembled or tested by Rimac (if this is incorrect, corrections are welcome). The cells are 26Ah, the modules consist of a 13S1P configuration, which is very unusual. Detailed DCir and ACir measurements of the cells showed almost all were within the range of 1.4mOhm ACir, and 3 cells at 1.79mOhm. This is very high and indicates that the cells are very worn out and very swollen. With increased resistance, they heat up more, discharge faster, and have a shorter range in winter. A colleague from the Dutch institute reports having had a few on repair, analysis, with defects at around 120,000 km due to extreme cell swelling, where twisting the module cages caused cell insulation damage. This is very dangerous because if the steel cage bites into two different cells in two places, it automatically leads to a short circuit and a chain reaction, i.e., fire. We do not bash hybrids because we are not involved in that story, as there is no adequate solution to remove the malfunction. Owners have a property on wheels and do not understand how the problem cannot be solved economically because “electrification should be just that.” Only owners do not understand that a hybrid in this form is not electrification but a Frankenstein complication for the rich and very, very, very, very arrogant rich who do not care how much the battery costs or the AMG c63 engine of €65,000, they just swipe the Gold Amex. This 25Ah battery has in 9 years charged/discharged 68,000Ah; if you divide that by 25 and account for the degradation curve, it is about 2200 charge cycles, or roughly 60,000 km driven exclusively on electricity. If this same cell were in a larger battery system, say 60kWh, it would have covered 6 times more kilometers before needing replacement, i.e., 360,000 km. This matches the malfunctions on other younger hybrids with total defects in the small battery system. So these, if we are not mistaken, Panasonic NMC cells, are alien tech and have endured very well in extreme environments, but a small system in a large operation is terrible for the battery’s health. Those who do not drive on electricity at all will have a longer-lasting battery, those who drive exclusively on electricity to save money, have not saved anything. So this malfunction, when we reset and repaired the BMS systems, started the engine, and the chain rattled (which also needs fixing), and the problem with the ground wiring in the engine compartment stops cranking and turns on the engine fan, the insulation is still good but the state of the cells at most another 10,000-20,000 km where a complete battery replacement will be needed, where besides all maintenance costs now there is also the cost of a battery that could not be amortized (60,000 km on electricity is about €8,000 in fuel). So hybrids after the warranty expires are realistically worthless because battery failure destroys any economic calculation (unless you are arrogantly rich). The recommendation is that if you must buy a hybrid under threat, drive it while it is under warranty and then sell it to an enemy, mother-in-law, ex, etc. Sages who claim otherwise are just sages. The recommendation to car dealerships and buyers is to steer clear of hybrids and stick to either pure gasoline or pure electric.
Part numbers: 7PP915590B, 7PP915215, 0442005001, 7PP915022, 0442005000,
Errors: P33F100, U014600, P0A1F00, P0DB400, P0DB800, P0DBC00, P0DC800, P0AE300, P0DC800
OEM (obsolete): €17,000
EVC BMS: €1,400
EVC Cell defect: not possible to repair
Porsche Panamera Plug-In Hybrid 970 2014 – 9 kWh Baterija od 17000€ prvim postupkom detaljne dijagnoze kvara naizgled se učinilo kao da je samo jedan problem da bi na kraju dokučili da postoji i druga 2 problema na ostatku vozila. Kupnja rabljenog hybrida je jako riskantan potez, jako riskantno i kupcima i preprodavačima, jer prodavači zadnje vrijeme u suzama poklapaju slušalicu bilježeći velike gubitke na hybridima kad im kažemo da jeftino riješenje ne postoji. Nakon prodaje vozila, koje uvezu sa kilometrima nakon isteka garancije, kupci- vlasnici se vraćaju preprodavacima zbog kvara , jer svaki prodavač mora garantirati 1 godinu zakonski. Tada nastaju problemi jer hybridne male baterije koje potrose svojih 2000 ciklusa punjenja vec na 50000km voznje na struju, nakon 7-8 godina koristenja, ne postoji riješenje “osvježavanja” ćelija. Baterijski sustav bi se mogao prepakovati da su ćelije tipske i dobavljive, medjutim proizvodjaci koriste dimenzije koje ne postoje u slobodnoj prodaji a osim toga terminali ćelija nisu na vijke već su vareni laserom i naprešani u svoje inox metalne kaveze koje opet treba rezati jer su vareni. Tako da vadjenje ćelija, nabava i izmjena, otvaranje i zatvarenje modula postaje mrtvo slovo na papiru i nemoguca misija. Terminali bi se morali novi proizvesti, dizajniranje i izrada bar 100,000 komada je oko 200000€. Stroj za CNC varenje je od 50,000-100,000€. Znaci da se jedan servis profesionalno pripremi za samo ovaj model baterije treba hipoteka na Hotel pa tek onda dalje izracun povrata na tavko ulaganje. Druga opcija je kupnja nove baterije od 17000€ ali nije dostupna, treca opcija je kupiti macka u vreci preko ebay za 8000€ koliko se krecu rabljene i nadati se da će raditi duže od godinu dana. Ova baterija, koja je jako zanimljivo i kompaktno napravljena, sa aktivnim grijanjem i hladjenjem ima preko 100 kilograma. Sustav je izgleda dizajnirao BOSCH, i to se vidi na prvu da se jako razlikuje od vecine drugih sustava. NMC Prismatic ćelije i BMS su identicni Fiat 500e USA California modelu kojeg smo vec radili. Dok su CSE kontroleri (slave BMS) jako jako slični sa Smarta 451. Takodjer je stigla dojava da je upravo ove baterije ili sklapao ili ispitivao Rimac ( ako je to netočno može i ispravak). Ćelije su 26Ah, moduli se sastoje od 13S1P konfiguracije, jako neuobičajeno. Detaljnim DCir i ACir mjerenje ćelija skoro sve su bile u okviru od 1.4mOhm ACir i 3x ćelije na 1.79mOhm. Sto je jako visoko i indikacija da su ćelije jako istrošene i da su jako napuhane. Porastom otpora više se i griju, brže prazne i zimi manji domet. Kolega sa Nizozemskog instituta prenosi da je imao par komada na reparaciji, analizi, sa defekom na nekih 120,000km zbog ekstremnog napuhavanja ćelija, gdje je motanjem kaveza modula doslo do ostećenja izolacije celije. Sto je jako opasno ako na dva mjesta čelični kavez zagrize 2 razlicite celije automatski dolazi do kratkog spoja i lančane reakcije tj. požara. Hybride ne pljujemo jer nema nas nigdje u toj priči, jer ne postoji adekvatno riješenje da se otkloni kvar. Vlasnici imaju nekretninu na kotačima i ne razumiju kako je moguce da je problem ne riješiv na ekonomičan način, jer “elektrifikacija bi trebala biti upravo to”. Samo što vlasnici ne razmiju da hybrid u ovom obliku nije elektrifikacija već frankestajn komplikacija za bogate i jako jako jako jako bahato bogate koje nije briga koliko baterija košta ili AMG c63 motor od 65,000€, samo provuku Gold Amex. Ova baterija od 25Ah je u 9 godina napunila/ispraznila 68000Ah, kad se podjeli sa 25 i ako uracunamo krivulju degradacije to je oko 2200 ciklusa punjenja ili u prijevodu to je odprilike 60000 predjenih km iskljucivo na struju. Sto se poklapa i sa kvarovima na drugim mladjim hybridima sa totalnim defektom baterije. Znači ove ako se ne varamo Panasonic NMC celije su alien tech i izdrzale su jako dobro u ekstremnom okruzenju ali mali sustav u velikom pogonu je užas za zdravlje baterije. Tko ne vozi na struju uopce – bude duže izdržala, tko vozi iskljucivo na struju da uštedi, taj nije uštedio ništa. Tako da ovaj kvar kad smo resetirali i reparirali BMS sustave je upalio i motoru je lanac zazveckao (i to treba popravljati), takodjer problem sa masom na ožičenju sasije u motornom prostoru prekida verglanje i upali ventilator motora, izolacija je jos dobra ali stanje celija max jos 10000-20000km gdje ce biti potrebna potpuna izmjena baterije, gdje je pored svih troskova odrzavanja sada i trosak baterije koja se nije mogla amortizirati (60000km na struju je oko 8000€ nafte). Tako da hybridi nakon isteka garancije realno ne vrijede nista, jer kvar baterije uništava svaku ekonomsku računicu (osim ako niste bahato bogati). Preporuka je da hybrida ako pod prijetnjom morate kupit, vozite dok je u garanciji nakon toga prodajte neprijatelju.
Part number: 7PP915590B, 7PP915215, 0442005001, 7PP915022, 0442005000,
Errors: P33F100, U014600, P0A1F00, P0DB400, P0DB800, P0DBC00, P0DC800, P0AE300, P0DC800
OEM (obsolete) : 17000€
EVC BMS: 1400€
EVC Cell defect: not possible to repair
